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Author Topic: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)  (Read 20866 times)

Aero

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Here is my project.  Its back to not running again thanks to a machine shop mis-communication but here is what I did this summer. Some of you may find it useful, especially if interested in the Holset VGT turbos. I'm sure I will be updating it slowly. Some of it was copy past, so if it sounds funny, you know why.


It was a pretty big project this summer, correcting a lot of DSM style little breakdowns and previous owner fuck ups as well as some of my own.
Really trying to clean the car up and make it nice again.  Unfortunately I ran out of time to do the paint and body work. Got the typical severe hrysler clearcoat fade.
The basics of the setup:
95 AWD
Stock trans
ACT 2600
94 Galant 2.4l
Eagle/wiseco 8.3:1
1000CC delphi's.
Whinebro 255HP
Stock 2g head/cams/intake
Megasquirt 2E 2.01
Stock exhaust manifold, with HMT style adapter to fit the turbo with included CDM 38mm gate
E85
For the moment, no intercooler and 8" of 3" pipe for the exhaust
Now the interesting part, VGT turbo, Holset HE351VE from a 6.7 Cummins.
Housing variable from something very small, 4-6cm^-25cm^2
The stock actuator on the turbo is an electrically controlled actuator normally controlled by the ECM.  Unfortunately I haven't figured out what kind of signal the ECM sends to the unit to position it. My experimental solution is a 14b wastegate actuator on the VGT rack arm. I didn't think it would work worth a shit, but so far its working pretty damn well.
Turbo compressor and turbine wheel dimensions.
Wheel measurements
Turbine
EX 2.357
IND 2.755

Compressor
EX 3.38
IND 2.37
Compressor is as close as I can measure since its a 7 bladed wheel. Measurements similar to the large 6bladed HX40.


I'll start with turbo pictures since its out of the ordinary.


VGT closed

VGT open

Turbine wheel and VGT vanes.

Compressor cover

VGT actuator

Actuator internals


Compared to a stock 90-94 Eclipse 5spd 14b turbo also what the actuator I used came off of.

Exhaust housing compared to a BEP housing for an HX40 and my ghetto adapter.





Continued..

Fitment with the stock radiator is very tight slightly better than it looks the rad isn't bolted on the top and is sitting back.  Fabricated solid front motor mount out of something similar to nylon or delrin to help wheelhop and prevent contact with the radiator.


My assistant for the whole thing...


How the wastegate actuator is attached to the turbo.  It passes through the front motor mount due to packaging.   It is from the stock 1g 5spd turbo, and is a ~9-10psi actuator.



Initial results.
Quote
The actuator holds the VGT closed until 6-7 psi, then spool slows down.  Its weird, driving normally you can't really hear much exhaust note wise the only thing you hear is the turbine wheel whistling, keep in mind this is through 8" of exhaust.  Once it hits 6-7 lbs, the note changes totally, the rack is open fully by ~10-11 lbs I beleive.  It sounds sort of like an electric cutout opening, but not as loud. I think even though it has a huge hotside the vanes still help quiet it down, but make it whistle more.  Go under and overpass and it sounds like a jet flying by.
Here is a log from ~70mph cruise in 5th gear showing the transient response.  70kpa, to 9psi in about .95 seconds  at ~3000-3100rpm.
It spools a good 1000-1200 rpm faster than the small 8 blade HX40 in the .55A/R bullseye housing I had on the car before.  Even with the VGT open fully which is somewhere far above 1A/R.  Over 3500rpm or so the boost keeps climbing,  by 4400 rpm it reaches 24lbs and climbing rapidly. I'm really glad I included the external gate.


This is before connecting the external gate to hold boost down.



« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 01:40:59 PM by Aero »
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Aero

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2009, 01:06:01 AM »

Some more pictures of all the work I did this summer. Correcting a lot of stuff that has been messed up since I got the car.  It was pretty extensive.
Many of the parts installed too.
Homemade teflon shif bushings.

Old dash.  Last owner got pissed and punched it I guess.


The mess under the dash and carpet.

New and old steering wheel

Couple of free parts cars. Damn ricers, luckily they weren't turbo cars



I painted/dyed the interior panels, got tired of the grey. New carpet




Had to repaint airbag cover because the humidity made it turn out funny.




« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 01:41:35 PM by Aero »
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Aero

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 01:10:24 AM »

More of the parts I changed.

Digital EGT and water temp gauges.  They work pretty well mount easily and are cheap. Peak hold, and compatible with all sorts of sensor types.   If anyone is interested www.auberins.com



Warranty replacements for a broken rear coilover spring.

AFPR

Delphi 1000cc injectors

Another one of manifold adapter and turbo before finished



Unfinished motor back from the machine shop.


New front cover/oil pump






Short shifter




The exhaust and wastegate dump peeking out from under the hood. You can see how short it is all 8" of it. lol
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 01:42:13 PM by Aero »
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 01:47:19 AM »

Old dash.  Last owner got pissed and punched it I guess.

A DSM owner get frustrated with his car? Never! I also love the HMT short shifter :P

So when do you think you'll have the block rebuilt & cranking boost? BTW I recall seeing someone point that company out for EGT & temp stuff. I'm using the SSI-4 for reading thermocouples and thermistors, but permanent digital displays would be real nice nice.
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Aero

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2009, 02:08:49 AM »

Actually that isn't an HMT shifter. I'm not sure what brand it is.  Got it with another DSM that I had.  Its just had the top cut off, which I hate the nice heavy momo(another freebie from another DSM) shift knob doesn't like to stay on no matter how hard its tightened. It is MUCH shorter than stock, mainly from the added throw below the pivot.

When its back on the road I'm not sure.  I think I'm going to have to find another place to keep it and tear into it.  The current place isn't woring out well.  I'm hoping I can do a bit on spring break next week, but I've said that before too. lol

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 07:08:54 PM »

i haven't done shit this spring break


glad to see the build move on over.  keep us updated.  any track plans in the future?
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 09:25:22 PM »

any track plans in the future?

Definitely.  As soon as I get it running well enough. I tried to take it once the week before the bearing went but after passing tech realized I had a bulge in the tread on the front tire and no spare. :(

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2009, 06:31:01 PM »

Your running again?  Kick ass, any plans to control te VGT with some logic rather than just a wastegate actuator?
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Aero

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 01:26:04 PM »

Your running again?  Kick ass, any plans to control te VGT with some logic rather than just a wastegate actuator?

I wish.  I see how my post made it seem that way though.  Woops.

As far as controlling it another way.  It is a possibility.

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 07:39:52 PM »

Awesome project.  What fuel do you plan on running?

I noticed the oil pan gasket.  They tend to leak quite often.  They come from the factory RTV'd, and is all I've ever used to avoid the leaks assosiated with the aftermarket cork gaskets.  Hopefully it works out for you!!  Can't wait to see some numbers.
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Aero

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 09:45:04 PM »

Awesome project.  What fuel do you plan on running?

I noticed the oil pan gasket.  They tend to leak quite often.  They come from the factory RTV'd, and is all I've ever used to avoid the leaks assosiated with the aftermarket cork gaskets.  Hopefully it works out for you!!  Can't wait to see some numbers.

It has been run and will be run on E85 solely. The only time it won't be is if I can't get it, or if its too clod to get it to start.

I've used about everything, cork, RTV only, cork and RTV, rubber. They all seem to leak.

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2009, 12:43:31 AM »

Well I moved all the pictures to break the links to the other site.  Now I need to go back and edit the links here and in a lot of other places.  Dammit.

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2009, 06:52:21 AM »

Well I moved all the pictures to break the links to the other site.  Now I need to go back and edit the links here and in a lot of other places.  Dammit.

Put the Real HMT logo from the top of the page in for all the old links at the old hmt,  ;)
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2009, 10:13:31 AM »

I'm trying to help out with the vgt control...  I have a little data, but until we can figure out exactly what the module needs to be told...  I dont know what we can do except make a new moduel to control it.  Maybe something with a egt input to pop it to full duty if egt exceeds 1500?  Also - something with tps settings (i posted about this idea on turbotalk too) so at cruise - its open.  or at least maybe a dip switch or something that puts it at full open for highway driving.

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2009, 10:30:15 AM »

I have one of these turbos sitting around as well, picked it up to investigate it more.  I have an HE341VE and it is much simpler but it's a smaller turbo I think.  The 341 simply has a DC motor and a potentiometer like a TPS to give position feedback, so I'm sure I could control it.  With the 351 like you all said it has a board built in which is kind of frustrating, I tried pulling the actuator apart but couldn't get the board out to get to the motor.  Do I have to cut off the plastic stubs that are melted down to the board to get it out or is it just glued in?  The edges will come up a little but I don't want to break the board.  If I could at least get to the motor I could add in direct wires for the motor and feedback sensor in order to build a new motor controller (hopefully), but even better if Holset's controller could be figured out.  Holset is very tight on information on that.  I'm a EE student but still pretty novice at circuits, I suppose I could attempt to trace out the circuit but then I still would need to know what some of the components on the board are as they have no markings.

The other option would be to make a new actuator to bolt on.  This would be a bit of work obviously.
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Aero

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2009, 10:11:33 PM »

I have one of these turbos sitting around as well, picked it up to investigate it more.  I have an HE341VE and it is much simpler but it's a smaller turbo I think.  The 341 simply has a DC motor and a potentiometer like a TPS to give position feedback, so I'm sure I could control it.  With the 351 like you all said it has a board built in which is kind of frustrating, I tried pulling the actuator apart but couldn't get the board out to get to the motor.  Do I have to cut off the plastic stubs that are melted down to the board to get it out or is it just glued in?  The edges will come up a little but I don't want to break the board.  If I could at least get to the motor I could add in direct wires for the motor and feedback sensor in order to build a new motor controller (hopefully), but even better if Holset's controller could be figured out.  Holset is very tight on information on that.  I'm a EE student but still pretty novice at circuits, I suppose I could attempt to trace out the circuit but then I still would need to know what some of the components on the board are as they have no markings.

The other option would be to make a new actuator to bolt on.  This would be a bit of work obviously.


Some measurements and pictures of the HE341Ve.
http://www.turbotalk.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=329

I don't know about the 341, but in the 351 the board in the actuator is supposed to be a 4 layer PCB, so tracing circuits is going to be pretty hard.

The motor in the 351 is also supposed to be a brushless DC motor, so it will require some kind of driver to run it. There are some people who have been working on controllers, hopefully someone gets one to work.  :yes:

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2009, 11:23:43 AM »

So I'm moving back home for the summer to work on the farm again. Will be towing the car home there.  It gets boring there when I'm not working so I'll definitely be finally getting started on it again very soon.  :yes:  And lots of stuff to play with turbo's on.   :P

Motivation has been an issue the last few months. lol

I hate dialup internet though.  :o

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:39:04 AM by Aero »
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2009, 07:04:27 PM »

hmm i've never seen a DSM 2.4L block with the large allen plugs in the deck surface.  Is this normal on the 2.4L from the Galant?  Is it a DOHC or SOHC block?

cool shit
need the vgt-ness

phil
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 07:35:55 PM »

Glad to see your getting this thing going again, You inspired me to pick up a H351VE so I have on sitting here going into my build...would love to see some guys figure out the vgt acctuator too, Im figuring on using a wastegate actuator like you have as a temp solution, thanks for putting up all this info!
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Aero

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2009, 12:49:21 PM »

 
hmm i've never seen a DSM 2.4L block with the large allen plugs in the deck surface.  Is this normal on the 2.4L from the Galant?  Is it a DOHC or SOHC block?

cool shit
need the vgt-ness

phil

Those plugs for sealing off some oil drainback holes that are in a 4g64 block that originally came witha  SOHC head.  They don't match up with the DOHC 4g63 head.  If you get a DOHC engine they arent required as the hole is missing or in a different location.  Its been a while so I can't remember the specific engines that dont need it.

Found a picture from another guys engine that shows why they need plugged. Plug toward the top left of cyl #2.
 

Glad to see your getting this thing going again, You inspired me to pick up a H351VE so I have on sitting here going into my build...would love to see some guys figure out the vgt acctuator too, Im figuring on using a wastegate actuator like you have as a temp solution, thanks for putting up all this info!

Thanks.  :)

There are some people who are working on them, not sure how the progress has been coming though.

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2009, 11:31:54 AM »

Car got trailered to my parents a couple days ago. Will be getting started very soon. Hopefully get the engine out before the busy time of harvest and at the machine shop so they can work on it while I'm busy.

List of things to come:
Evo3 intake manifold as long as I can find one soon enough, shorter runners and a bit different design that works without porting on a 2g head port.

Intercooler install, planning on an Air/Water setup to simplify intake piping. Hard to fit air/air piping with the turbo that's on there.

Secondary fuel rail for small injectors to make the car more drivable, using 240cc/min injectors.
Most likely a second walbro 255hp to keep up with E85 flow rates on 1200cc/min+ total injector capacity.

Paint and body work

That's the major plans.

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2009, 06:26:47 PM »

body work sucks

have fun
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2009, 06:54:11 PM »

Finally had time to start on it. Engine is out. Planning on taking it up to the machine shop monday or tuesday.
 :yes:

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2009, 07:40:17 PM »

in for the updates :D
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2009, 10:13:14 AM »

Aero  do you happen to know if a h1c 18cm housing will fit on a Hx-35 with the 20somthing cm housing?
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2009, 11:09:49 AM »

 
Aero  do you happen to know if a h1c 18cm housing will fit on a Hx-35 with the 20somthing cm housing?

I know the bullseye housings for the H1c and Hx35 are the same. So unless its some really odd H1c then it should work.
What did the Hx35 come off of? Thats an unusually large housing for them, usually the big ones were from the older H1c's at least on the dodge trucks thats the case.

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2009, 05:43:30 PM »

this was one of my favorite projects.. get it          back on the road. variable geometry turbos are fucking tits
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2009, 09:02:14 PM »

Aero, ive read your thread here and the stuff on dsmtuners.org (please shoot me, so many idiots there...)

What is your honest opinion on how well VTG in the holset 351's can control boost?  I mean assuming you have full electronic control over the actuator, which is not really that much of a hurdle, do you think that controlling boost pressures in the 25-35psi range with less than 3psi spike or drop is feasible?  This question is very relevant to my interests as I am purchasing a turbo for the colt soon, stock block/head 4g63 6bolt, probably run of the mill BC 272's etc etc.
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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2009, 08:05:35 AM »

l
Aero, ive read your thread here and the stuff on dsmtuners.org (please shoot me, so many idiots there...)

What is your honest opinion on how well VTG in the holset 351's can control boost?  I mean assuming you have full electronic control over the actuator, which is not really that much of a hurdle, do you think that controlling boost pressures in the 25-35psi range with less than 3psi spike or drop is feasible?  This question is very relevant to my interests as I am purchasing a turbo for the colt soon, stock block/head 4g63 6bolt, probably run of the mill BC 272's etc etc.
IMO NOT possible.  With the VGT open as far as it will physically go(which happens anytime over ~8-10psi with the wastegate actuator moving it) I hit 24psi by ~4400 rpm at WOT.  The boost curve looks like a parabola at that point climbing at an exponential rate.

Just think of it like a turbo with a fixed 25cm housing(which is the limit of how far it will open), several guys on here run an H1c with a 18 or 21cm housing and they require a wastegate it just spools slower.

Since you will have a 2l it should occur at slightly higher RPM but even if it happened at ~5100 you still have a LOT of powerband left. You will need the external wastegate too.  There is just too much exhaust energy relative to the diesel engine they came off of. 

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Re: 1995 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Holset HE351VE VGT Build thread. (No 56K)
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2009, 08:42:52 AM »

l
Aero, ive read your thread here and the stuff on dsmtuners.org (please shoot me, so many idiots there...)

What is your honest opinion on how well VTG in the holset 351's can control boost?  I mean assuming you have full electronic control over the actuator, which is not really that much of a hurdle, do you think that controlling boost pressures in the 25-35psi range with less than 3psi spike or drop is feasible?  This question is very relevant to my interests as I am purchasing a turbo for the colt soon, stock block/head 4g63 6bolt, probably run of the mill BC 272's etc etc.
IMO NOT possible.  With the VGT open as far as it will physically go(which happens anytime over ~8-10psi with the wastegate actuator moving it) I hit 24psi by ~4400 rpm at WOT.  The boost curve looks like a parabola at that point climbing at an exponential rate.

Just think of it like a turbo with a fixed 25cm housing(which is the limit of how far it will open), several guys on here run an H1c with a 18 or 21cm housing and they require a wastegate it just spools slower.

Since you will have a 2l it should occur at slightly higher RPM but even if it happened at ~5100 you still have a LOT of powerband left. You will need the external wastegate too.  There is just too much exhaust energy relative to the diesel engine they came off of. 

Thank you thats exactly what I wanted to know.
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