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Author Topic: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Supercharger. Pg 6 Twinchared  (Read 48380 times)

92CXyD

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My D16z6 w/ SC14 Supercharger. Pg 6 Twinchared
« on: March 14, 2009, 03:12:01 PM »

The victim for this build is a '92 Civic CX. I picked it up for free from my brother in law after he wrecked it twice in the nose. I drove this car back from Fairfax VA. to Casper Wyoming.
Some times running on 3 cylinders b/c of a hole in the sparkplug boot.

After driving my hatch for about 3yrs as is and at one point even achieving 44.5mpg or 667miles on one tank of gas in town. I wanted to compete in my local auto-x events with a little bit more power. So I got a d16z6 w/ trans. out of a '94 EX coupe w/ unknown mileage.
Installed it w/ an Egay 6-puck clutch and chrome moly lite flywheel (11lbs.) and a cheap SS headers to make my exhaust easier to hook up. I had a buddy who gave me his homemade 2.5" exhaust which I installed. I originally had no catylitic converter but after walking behind my car and about died from the fumes I installed one.
These pictures are of the SC14 I bought for $250. These s/c come out of '95 to '97 Toyota Previa. I got the idea to use one of these when I read about 1g MR2 use these to upgrade from their SC12 to SC14 on 1.6l 4age. And I own a '96 Previa AWD S/C. These pictures show where my original planned location until I realized I would have no room for my driver side cv-axle and the pulley was too close to the shock tower. Notice the a/c cluth pulley.



The next two pictures give you an idea the size of the SC14.


I realize the only way to get this in was to take out the a/c system.
I started cutting the radiator support to make more room.
But after looking at my wife's hatchback the iI found tons room if I use a scissor jack to push the bottom of the rad support away from the engine back to its OE location.
Wires and hoses going every where. 1g bov, intercooler, piping, and coupler from a buddy for $65 helped. Three of those couplers are not being used I had the pipes welded including using my old cold air intake.

Intercooler and s/c outlet manifold and air filter. These SC14s comes with oil dipsticks. I could mount it upright. Looking at the bypass tube and valve I had to duct tape them closed since I did not have way of controlling the bypass yet.


I wired the SC14 clutch pulley to the original a/c compressor clutch activation switch. And jumper-ed the pressure switch plug. Now the main power to my s/c was the a/c switch on my dash. I used the original a/c tensioner pulley assembly. For the idler pulley I just used a longer bolt through the bottom bracket holding s/c. Long enough to use spacers to space the pulley out to line up with belt and pulleys.


I ran a hose (spare rad. hose) from the bov to the air filter assembly

I originally used 450cc DSM inj., resistor box, and a V-AFC. I know that the v-afc is junk but I did not have any parts to use to chip my ecu.
I drove this setup for 4 month with very little problems. Until I lost rod #4.



Built another motor
Which I'll post here when I start taking more pictures.

Motor plan includes:
D16z6 block already filled with devcon
Block  decked 0.020in and bored and honed to a p2w of 0.004 to 0.0045in.
D16z6 crank stock
Vitara ycp pistons 75.5mm o/s w/ new Honda 75.5mm Rings. (for the rings thanks Jargon pistons from a HMT member's name I lost from the whole website snafu)
Used TT rods w/ new ARP 2000 bolts. (also from a HMT member's name I lost from the whole website snafu)
New stock bearings.
New Water pump
D16y8 cylinderhead will be used with a lite port matching. (thanks to Teng Vang I forgot his hmt name but thanks mang.)
Stock ported D16z6 intake w/ 788cc injectors. (thanks to Super Dipper).
I'm using a slightly modified H23a tb which helps a lot when not under boost compared to stock tb.

I'm planning on designing a new intake mani w/ 4 tbs and a plenumn w/ a 3" inlet. It will have provisions for 2 rows of inj.  and larger fuel rails.
I plan on having a turbo on top of this setup or twincharge system I like to call it.
I plan on either using one of these:

The green turbo is a used Mercedes diesil To4b unknown comp.  w/ less than5k miles b/c the motor was replaced with a new turbo and the motor ran out of oil but did not damage the turbo.
The red turbo is a T0468 with a S-trim comp. New never used
The silver/natural turbo is a T0445 unknown comp. New never used






All three turbines are O-trim and have a split turbine housing.
I'm either going to use the red turbo with a blockoff plate on the inner port of the turbine housing or buy a T70 and sell these three turbos.
I'm also designing new inlet and outlet manifolds to the SC14 for both better flow and to give more room to clear the exhaust mani.
I'm either going to make a sink trap of the 4-2 part of my header and mount the turbo at the same height as a top mount mani. would w/ 3" downpipe and a wg on the sink trap pipe or get a top mount mani. made for me.

I am open to ideas but keep in mind I am on a tight budget.







 :noel:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 08:48:52 AM by 92CXyD »
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2009, 04:15:46 PM »

NICE! Cool project you've got going. Can you give us an idea of how fast the SC made it? Better/worse than a JRSC?


Just a few pointers - the bypass should dump back into the SC's intake, assuming the bypass valve is the correct kind which opens with the slightest amount of vacuum. Also the s-trim will pump out ~325whp, and the turbine won't help too much with power, but spool far slower than T3 turbine.

Also, the ITB's won't really be needed at that HP level. The sohc intake really isn't the issue, the whole intake/head/cam is. Regardless, a handful of people have made 400whp with a stock intake/head/cam. Spend your money on a cam or turbo before the ITB's.

If you plan on making a sinktrap manifold, you'll have to do a few things. First, change the intake so the filter is right in front of the driver's side motor mount. Next, get an EF waterneck (and rad hose) for the block - it will turn the rad hose so it exits about 45* more towards the passenger side to give more downpipe room.
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92CXyD

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2009, 05:22:59 PM »

NICE! Cool project you've got going. Can you give us an idea of how fast the SC made it? Better/worse than a JRSC?


Just a few pointers - the bypass should dump back into the SC's intake, assuming the bypass valve is the correct kind which opens with the slightest amount of vacuum. Also the s-trim will pump out ~325whp, and the turbine won't help too much with power, but spool far slower than T3 turbine.

Also, the ITB's won't really be needed at that HP level. The sohc intake really isn't the issue, the whole intake/head/cam is. Regardless, a handful of people have made 400whp with a stock intake/head/cam. Spend your money on a cam or turbo before the ITB's.

If you plan on making a sinktrap manifold, you'll have to do a few things. First, change the intake so the filter is right in front of the driver's side motor mount. Next, get an EF waterneck (and rad hose) for the block - it will turn the rad hose so it exits about 45* more towards the passenger side to give more downpipe room.


With the SC14 I have hit 18psig before but I usually run around 10-12psi. at WOT and
from 1k to 7k rpms.
I try not to over rev. the s/c b/c it has design limits of 10k continuous and 12k instantaneous redline.
refer to: http://www.oguraclutch.co.jp/english/e_products/sc/sc_siyou.htm and http://www.mr2supercharger.com/SCblowers2  (look at the bottom of page.)
On the first link look at part# TX15
On the second link look at part # ‚s‚w‚P‚T
With the crank pulley to s/c pulley ratio of 1.4:1
I run my engine up to 6k =8.4k at the s/c. I do plan on installing a throttle switch similar to a NOS activation full throttle switch.
The SC14 is a 1440/rev = 84cid compare to a 46cid or 64cid JRSC super plus I use an intercooler. My intake temp. never go over 20 deg above ambient.
With a JRSC 46cid on a D16z6 they start to heat the charged air considerably above 4k rpms.
So I would say SC14>JRSC in my book plus I spent less than $600 for this setup.
I never got to a drag strip yet but I know I can get in the 13sec in the 1/4 for sure maybe lower.
I had a buddy ride with me and counted a little over 5 sec. to go from 0 to 60mph.

As for the bypass where I hook the 1g DSM bov the hose runs to the inlet of my s/c already.
The bov is hooked up to the tb like on turbo applications. One of the problems with this bov is it does not release the compressed air fast enough.

As for ITBs I already have a set but I will explore the option more later.

I do want to go over the 450 bhp range so I may have to sell 3 T04bs but I would like to play with them using the divided housing block off.

As far as the sink trap setup you mentioned the intake. My intake is on the driver's side just above the s/c. And the idea with using an EF water outlet is a good one I was wondering if I could some how route that differently.

Thanks for the feedback. ;D
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 07:37:55 AM by 92CXyD »
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2009, 05:49:24 PM »

This is good shit!

Can we get some better pics of the work it takes to do just the junkyard SC?  That would be cool!  I would do this  :yes:
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92CXyD

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2009, 06:14:22 PM »

I'll post some as soon as the weather warmer in my neck the woods. ;D

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2009, 07:46:47 AM »

Badass build! It spools 10-12 psi already at 2K rpm's?

Are you planning to run it to engine redline, or just disable it at higher rpm's and let the turbo take over?
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2009, 07:50:22 AM »

Disable it at 6k or 7k rpms.

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2009, 08:53:47 AM »

Really nice I am loving it. The Tq this puts out must make a fun DD. BTW do you have more pic's of the work you did to put the sc in, also pic's of it with out the header?
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2009, 09:33:12 AM »

No I didn't have many pictures of the installation.

I will when I reinstall the s/c on my new D16z6/y8.

The lower bracket (modified d-series alt. bracket) will be reused but the upper bracket will be rigidly constructed.

The inlet manifold to the s/c will be designed to give more direct flow.

And I will  have the e-bypass that came the SC14 will be active to help reroute flow around the the s/c when s/c pulley is not active.

92CXyD

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Supercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2009, 09:39:11 PM »

While taking my setup apart so I can get new motor in I noticed about 3 or 4 canidates for boost leaks.
I think once I get every thing back together and all my boost leaks taken care of I will be running closer to 14 to 16psig at same rpm range I was running 10 to 12 psig. ;D

Hell after fixing the boost leak issues I could even possibly be in the 20psig area. :o

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2009, 10:39:42 PM »

I really want to see the SC write up!  Thats gonna be sweet   :yes:
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2009, 02:27:20 AM »

so when you  do your twin set up how would you turn the sc  on and off fast enought i know you use the ac clutch  but is that going to fast at the track? like im unsure how to word what im asking .. the point to me to run a twin set up would be to run a nasty big turbo and use the sc to spool that.  right? but  do you use the ac switch to turn it on and off? and aslo one more think with the twin set up do you run the out put from the sc to the inlet on the turbo or???
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92CXyD

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2009, 07:59:04 AM »

so when you  do your twin set up how would you turn the sc  on and off fast enought i know you use the ac clutch  but is that going to fast at the track? like im unsure how to word what im asking .. the point to me to run a twin set up would be to run a nasty big turbo and use the sc to spool that.  right? but  do you use the ac switch to turn it on and off? and aslo one more think with the twin set up do you run the out put from the sc to the inlet on the turbo or???

I'll run the turbo outlet to s/c inlet once the total boost reaches a intended level the s/c is switch off and bypass vaalve route the charged air around the s/c.

Then the turbo maintains boost in the 5k to what ever revs. I want.

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2009, 01:06:51 PM »

sounds really cool would like to know more about  the set up and how it works
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2009, 11:43:58 AM »

Dude.... Sick build.

If I were you though, I'd pulley the SC to make say 12 PSI. Then air goes:

airfilter>bigfuckingturbo>small 60%+ efficient IC>inlet of SC> out of SC> big fucking IC> engine.

The turbo's WG would be referenced to the turbo's outlet such that it maintains a certain pressure pre-SC. Then let the SC compound this by w/e pressure ratio you pulley it to.

If you get your pulleys and boost setting right, you can get manifold absolute pressure > pre-turbine absolute pressure. Then you can go wild with the cams and dial in huge overlap and make some serious power at high RPMs.

$0.02.
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2009, 12:00:56 PM »

so when you  do your twin set up how would you turn the sc  on and off fast enought i know you use the ac clutch  but is that going to fast at the track? like im unsure how to word what im asking .. the point to me to run a twin set up would be to run a nasty big turbo and use the sc to spool that.  right? but  do you use the ac switch to turn it on and off? and aslo one more think with the twin set up do you run the out put from the sc to the inlet on the turbo or???

I'll run the turbo outlet to s/c inlet once the total boost reaches a intended level the s/c is switch off and bypass vaalve route the charged air around the s/c.

Then the turbo maintains boost in the 5k to what ever revs. I want.
About the Twin setup.

There's a smart easy way to do it totally mechanic in which the transition from Sc to turbo is smooth and does not create problems. It's done with a "Y" one-way valve.

Once the turbo's pressure starts to overpower the SC's output, the valve gradually flips until it closes off the SC; at which point the SC bypass valve kicks in, and the SC is not absorbing energy anymore,since it's not compressing air.

And when you let off and the turbo fades, the SC (it's still there, spinning) pushes open the swing valve, the bypass automatically closes and the SC it starts compressing air and its boost flows to the engine.
And so on....

This is the system that was developed in the rally Lancia S4: they kept having trouble in the transition, so they went mechanical and it proved perfect.

For this system you need a bypass on the SC and one after the turbo. It works fine whether you have SC feeding the Turbo or viceversa, you just need to do the plumbing right.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 12:06:03 PM by robus »
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2009, 12:04:52 PM »

In other words the nice thing of this system is that you don't have to guesss, switch at 5k or at X psi, and then it's not smooth and the boost drops or the car bogs.

With the mechanical valve the boost grows and gradually and automatically switches on and off the SC. Also this way it's much easier to mate a large turbo to the SC.
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92CXyD

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2009, 12:33:06 PM »

Dude.... Sick build.

If I were you though, I'd pulley the SC to make say 12 PSI. Then air goes:

airfilter>bigfuckingturbo>small 60%+ efficient IC>inlet of SC> out of SC> big fucking IC> engine.

The turbo's WG would be referenced to the turbo's outlet such that it maintains a certain pressure pre-SC. Then let the SC compound this by w/e pressure ratio you pulley it to.

If you get your pulleys and boost setting right, you can get manifold absolute pressure > pre-turbine absolute pressure. Then you can go wild with the cams and dial in huge overlap and make some serious power at high RPMs.

$0.02.


I'm probably going to use just one IC and it will be after both compressors b/c I use the S/C only when I need to aggressively accelerate.

I still have to keep this as a DD so I want to maintain some kind of mileage which I still get 30+mpg in town. :yes:

The turbo part based on two different programs I'm using for modeling I'll have to use a T57 to a T70 type compressor b/c
when sizing I treat the engine and S/C as a total package.
So instead of entering a 85% V.E. at 6k for engine I have to enter 182% to 187% V.E. to size turbo when using the S/C at the same time.
But the tricky part is the S/C turns off and I use a bypass valve(s) I run strictly on the turbo I will I have to use one of these turbos while their spooled up.

In other words the nice thing of this system is that you don't have to guess, switch at 5k or at X psi, and then it's not smooth and the boost drops or the car bogs.

With the mechanical valve the boost grows and gradually and automatically switches on and off the SC. Also this way it's much easier to mate a large turbo to the SC.

Is there some kind of diagram to explain this being done mechanically?

I'm using DSM 1g BOV as a bypass now but it does not release enough vol. of charged air fast enough so I'm picking up another one.
After I fix the boost leaks on this setup I think I would hitting 12-14psig with spikes of 18-20psig so I will need more vol. to bypass the s/c when I let the throttle go below 50% and the S/C pulley deactivates.

Thanks guy for the ideas keep them coming.
I like fresh thoughts for this project.
I will have the new engine done by middle Apr.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 07:41:47 AM by 92CXyD »
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2009, 01:39:26 PM »

If I was to give it a shot, I'd do something like solenoid & throttle body as the bypass, assuming you have to SC->turbo->fmic->engine.

The problem is the SC turning off. Roger McDaniels has proof, not a guess, that an SC takes less power to turn than the power steering pump when it freewheels, meaning fully bypassed. I'd run it SC->turbo->fmic->engine, then just have a LARGE bypass between the SC & turbo. When the bypass opens, the SC is just moving air, not compressing it.

In short, the SC clutch is ONLY useful with a good working bypass. If you could make an MS PAINT version of your idea, then I could understand it & help out.
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2009, 01:43:45 PM »

If I was to give it a shot, I'd do something like solenoid & throttle body as the bypass, assuming you have to SC->turbo->fmic->engine.

The problem is the SC turning off. Roger McDaniels has proof, not a guess, that an SC takes less power to turn than the power steering pump when it freewheels, meaning fully bypassed. I'd run it SC->turbo->fmic->engine, then just have a LARGE bypass between the SC & turbo. When the bypass opens, the SC is just moving air, not compressing it.

In short, the SC clutch is ONLY useful with a good working bypass. If you could make an MS PAINT version of your idea, then I could understand it & help out.

I'll try to MSPaint when I get home but I'm good at it.

I may just draw it out on some Engineerin Comp. paper and take a picture instead.

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2009, 02:36:15 PM »

Dude.... Sick build.

If I were you though, I'd pulley the SC to make say 12 PSI. Then air goes:

airfilter>bigfuckingturbo>small 60%+ efficient IC>inlet of SC> out of SC> big fucking IC> engine.

The turbo's WG would be referenced to the turbo's outlet such that it maintains a certain pressure pre-SC. Then let the SC compound this by w/e pressure ratio you pulley it to.

If you get your pulleys and boost setting right, you can get manifold absolute pressure > pre-turbine absolute pressure. Then you can go wild with the cams and dial in huge overlap and make some serious power at high RPMs.

$0.02.


I'm probably going to use just one IC and it will be after both compressors b/c I use the S/C only when I need to aggresively accelerate.

I still have to keep this as a DD so I want to maintain some kind of mileage which I still get 30+mpg in town. :yes:

The turbo part part based on two different programs I'm using for modeling I'll have to use a T57 to a T70 type compressor b/c
when sizing I treat the engine and S/C as a total package.
So instead of entering a 85% V.E. at 6k for engine I have to enter 182% to 187% V.E. to size turbo when using the S/C at the same time.
But the tricky part is the S/C turns off and I use a bypass valve(s) I run strickly on the turbo I wil I have to use one of these turbos while their spooled up.

In other words the nice thing of this system is that you don't have to guesss, switch at 5k or at X psi, and then it's not smooth and the boost drops or the car bogs.

With the mechanical valve the boost grows and gradually and automatically switches on and off the SC. Also this way it's much easier to mate a large turbo to the SC.

Is there some kind of diagram to explain this being done mechanically?

I'm using DSM 1g BOV as a bypass now but it does not release enough vol. of charged air fast enough so I'm picking up another one.
After I fix the boost leaks on this setup I think I would hitting 12-14psig with spikes of 18-20psig so I will need more vol. to bypass the s/c when I let the trottle go below 50% and the S/C pulley deactivates.

Thanks guy for the ideas keep them coming.
I like fresh thoughts for this project.
I will have the new engine done by middle Apr.


Yeah. Well, your way will work. My way won't hurt your mileage any more though. And then you wouldn't need any bypass valves either...

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2009, 06:22:44 AM »

next time you are near fairfax, shoot me a pm and I'll buy you a beer
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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2009, 07:50:50 AM »

In other words the nice thing of this system is that you don't have to guesss, switch at 5k or at X psi, and then it's not smooth and the boost drops or the car bogs.

With the mechanical valve the boost grows and gradually and automatically switches on and off the SC. Also this way it's much easier to mate a large turbo to the SC.


Is there some kind of diagram to explain this being done mechanically?

I'm using DSM 1g BOV as a bypass now but it does not release enough vol. of charged air fast enough so I'm picking up another one.
After I fix the boost leaks on this setup I think I would hitting 12-14psig with spikes of 18-20psig so I will need more vol. to bypass the s/c when I let the trottle go below 50% and the S/C pulley deactivates.

Thanks guy for the ideas keep them coming.
I like fresh thoughts for this project.
I will have the new engine done by middle Apr.


Here's what I drew at one time:


I didn't put the BOVs there but they're obvious—one (recirculating) after SC and before the valve, the other between Turbo and TB.
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boosted 00 black si

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2009, 09:02:01 AM »

nice work
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clwtwizted

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2009, 10:56:08 AM »

Looking good.
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92CXyD

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2009, 07:01:18 PM »

next time you are near fairfax, shoot me a pm and I'll buy you a beer

Will do I may even go to the Dyno day thing at JD's shop when ever it is in May, June, July or Aug. that was talked about.

If the Dyno day thing is in Aug. I could have the twincharge setup completed then get it fully tuned in NC.

Then I would take whole family to Fairfax and shot down to Ashville for Dyno Days. ;D

boostinallday

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2009, 08:36:47 AM »

that thing is cool.
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95eg91da

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2009, 09:09:55 PM »

hey im building d16 any suggestions?
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jagojon3

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2009, 09:15:10 PM »

Step 1: Rope
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97Econobox

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Re: My D16z6 w/ SC14 Suphercharger. Lots of Pictures and Long write-up
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2009, 06:24:54 AM »

hey im building d16 any suggestions?

Dont the metal is hard to cast, id just buy one.

So hows it running Russ?
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